paizo.com - Forums / Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: SpellShot Gunslinger Fixed (2024)

Spellshot really wasn't that good before because of the locked in dedication felt like a strait jacket. The latest Guns and Gears errata now makes it viable. Now you get access to beast gunner and the wizard archetype.

I really do appreciate when a disfunctional part of the game is repaired.

The class archetype is certainly better now, though I think it improved in in an area that it shouldn't have improved. It was agreed upon that spellshot was really weak even among regular gunslinger sublcasses, one of the reasons being that for no apparent reason it changed your KAS to Int. What this errata could have done is to make it a regular subclass that doesn't change the KAS and turns Conjure Bullet into a regular feat, though instead they decided to double down on the class using Int as its KAS but for whatever reason the archetype is missing Master Wizard Spellcasting.

Also, apparently Conjure Bullet just disappeared? I feel that was one of the most flavorful parts of the archetype. I also would have prefered for Energy Shot to not be limited to just three shots but rather be a constant effect. They could have phrased it as "You can Interact to draw a ranged weapon. Until the end of the encounter, you deal an additional 1 acid, cold, fire or electricity damage with this ranged weapon. You choose which damage type to deal as part of making each Strike."

Even if you are a spellcaster now, that alone doesn't mean you are going to use either spell attacks or spell DCs against your enemies, though just because the KAS still is Int you are going to be a worse gunslinger too. I also find really weird that Dispelling Bullet still uses your class DC - 10 instead of, I don't know, your spell DC - 10? I get that it would be lower than your class DC if you don't take the spellcasting feats, but there isn't a reason to use your spells or spell proficiencies at all.

I really hope this isn't a preview on how bloodrager and (assuming its reprinted at some point) eldritch trickster are going to look like.

I'm not quite satisfied with it. Still requiring Beast Gunner for both Spellsling and Master Spellcasting will never not feel awkward. It is an unnecessarily attachment, especially with the restriction of only being allowed to Spellsling with your Beast Guns and not any other guns (like...spellguns...).

Losing Conjure Bullet is also weird since I would expect Spellshots to never have to worry about buying bullets and Conjure Bullet was good flavor. Now they are reliant on Munitions Crafter to make basic gunpowder, which doesn't feel great... I'm willing to say that is more a mistake with the errata wording, but it still feels weird to miss out on them.

I'm happy with most of the changes, I just still feel like Spellshot shouldn't be so tied down to Beast Guns to do the fantasy justice.

I don't really mind conjure bullet going away. Yeah it was flavorful, but mechanically it was kind of a dead option in that it didn't play with other reload mechanics and provided no inherent benefit in any scenario where you weren't concerned about ammunition.

Like a big part of what made Spellshot so frustrating is that your dedication feat basically did nothing most of the time.

exequiel759 wrote:

It was agreed upon that spellshot was really weak even among regular gunslinger sublcasses, one of the reasons being that for no apparent reason it changed your KAS to Int.

It doesn't have Int as it's KAS though: "Your key spellcasting attribute for spellshot archetype spells is Intelligence" but that doesn't change your Key Ability Score.

graystone wrote:

exequiel759 wrote:

It was agreed upon that spellshot was really weak even among regular gunslinger sublcasses, one of the reasons being that for no apparent reason it changed your KAS to Int.

It doesn't have Int as it's KAS though: "Your key spellcasting attribute for spellshot archetype spells is Intelligence" but that doesn't change your Key Ability Score.

The archetype itself changes it to Intelligence, and unless I'm missing something, the revised spellshot doesn't change that.

exequiel759 wrote:

graystone wrote:

exequiel759 wrote:

It was agreed upon that spellshot was really weak even among regular gunslinger sublcasses, one of the reasons being that for no apparent reason it changed your KAS to Int.

It doesn't have Int as it's KAS though: "Your key spellcasting attribute for spellshot archetype spells is Intelligence" but that doesn't change your Key Ability Score.

The archetype itself changes it to Intelligence, and unless I'm missing something, the revised spellshot doesn't change that.

No, you change your *Class DC*, not your Key Ability Score. So it makes it harder to land Firearm Crit Spec for...no good reason.

exequiel759 wrote:

graystone wrote:

exequiel759 wrote:

It was agreed upon that spellshot was really weak even among regular gunslinger sublcasses, one of the reasons being that for no apparent reason it changed your KAS to Int.

It doesn't have Int as it's KAS though: "Your key spellcasting attribute for spellshot archetype spells is Intelligence" but that doesn't change your Key Ability Score.

The archetype itself changes it to Intelligence, and unless I'm missing something, the revised spellshot doesn't change that.

I just looked it up before posting and I don't see it. Where in the archetype is it? All I see is Int for class DC in the archetype.

"Spellshot Adjustments: Instead of choosing a way from the options listed in the gunslinger class, you have the way of the spellshot. It has the following way skill, slinger’s reload, and deeds. You gain these abilities at the same levels as normal for the class. You use Intelligence for your class DC."

exequiel759 wrote:

Huh, I guess I just assumed since it changed your class DC it also changed your KAS. Now I'm seriously asking myself why it changes the class DC to begin with, since I don't think there's a class that doesn't use its KAS for their class DC, and the only thing that actually uses your class DC is Dispelling Bullet.

Well, I don't think they change the class DC anymore: the new text now says "Your key spellcasting attribute for spellshot archetype spells is Intelligence, and they are arcane spells" and makes no mention of class DC.

exequiel759 wrote:

Huh, I guess I just assumed since it changed your class DC it also changed your KAS. Now I'm seriously asking myself why it changes the class DC to begin with, since I don't think there's a class that doesn't use its KAS for their class DC, and the only thing that actually uses your class DC is Dispelling Bullet.

Okay, changing Class DC to not your KAS is an odd choice and i think it's the only odd sub-class archetype dedication that does it. If it changes your KAS to INT and let you attack with INT it wouldn't be a terrible idea but what is Spellshot/Beastgunner compared to Starlit Span Magus?

Funnily enough, I'm in a table with a warrior bard PC that the GM allowed to use his Charisma modifier for attack rolls with his firearm. This happened because the character initially didn't have that firearm and didn't intend to use ranged weapons, but at some point we had dealings with some firearm smugglers (in the setting we are playing firearms are prohibited in a particular nation) so he started using firearms but his lower proficiency plus his +1 Dex mod (ouch) made him effectivily useless with it. We later met a mage that crafted a special firearm with this property for him.

Back on topic, I wouldn't be against that idea, though I think it would be kinda weird.

I'd be interested in seeing what people's new builds would be. I played a spellshot from L1 to L6 and the thing that disliked the most was losing that L2 feat for fake out or risky reload and then having to pick between those and running reload at L4.

The action economy reload feats/fakeout are necessary to making the gunslinger even functional as a baseline support character (and definitely don't help it get to a DPR/Striker class). I'm not sure recall knowledge as a reload option is all the great unless they routinely have weaknesses to fire/acid/electricity or you had a way to get bonuses to hit for yourself or another person on a successful recall knowledge roll while reloading.

I do like that you effectively get a wizard dedication+ so the change is a big improvement. But I'm not sure its the best synergy. I feel like it would have been way cooler if it got a free action reload as part of casting a spell or something like that so they could do a cantrip/reload + bespell weapon + shot type turn by L8 or do some kind of shield/guidance + reload and shot with a 3rd action left.

While a major power increase as written, I would have preferred if they had granted the Eldritch Archer dedication instead, stating that they apply the dedication to guns/ammunition rather than bows/arrows. That would seem like the most applicable path.

It would have been fun for them to lean into Conjure Bullet too, rather than away from it. Tie it to Energy Shot and have it auto gain Cold Iron and Silver, and eventually Adamantine material. Maybe you can only do the advanced abilities like Phase Bullet with a conjured bullet.

It is certainly a big improvement over essentially not having a 2nd level feat and the slightly improved Energy Shot damage is neat, but it still feels like a poor compromise. At the end of the day, this "class archetype" just provides little of use to you or your party. Reload is still of middling usefulness at most, the added spells don't mix with your action economy or abilities at all and the mandatory 6th level feat still basically says "ah, you wanted to play a different class?".

So yeah, it is technically viable now. Unfortunately, the Starlit Span Magus provides the exact same fantasy, but in a far better package.

graystone wrote:

exequiel759 wrote:

Huh, I guess I just assumed since it changed your class DC it also changed your KAS. Now I'm seriously asking myself why it changes the class DC to begin with, since I don't think there's a class that doesn't use its KAS for their class DC, and the only thing that actually uses your class DC is Dispelling Bullet.

Well, I don't think they change the class DC anymore: the new text now says "Your key spellcasting attribute for spellshot archetype spells is Intelligence, and they are arcane spells" and makes no mention of class DC.

So it works like Monk now with their ki spells.

Something else was noted in another Discord server (Mark Seifter's one).

Someone stated: "Out of curiousity, does spellshot get master wizard spellcasting at lvl 18? It isn't listed. Have to go will check in later!"

Mike Sayre responded: "For a variety of reasons, no, but we did boost the compatibility between spellshot and beast gunner."

I'm legitimately curious as to why, but I'm not gonna try and guess. Just an interesting thing to note that it's not an error that Master Spellcasting was missing.

Sigh - those are the sort of game rules I always ignore.

It is about as satisfying as the old racial class level limits from the dark ages.

Ezekieru wrote:

Something else was noted in another Discord server (Mark Seifter's one).

Someone stated: "Out of curiousity, does spellshot get master wizard spellcasting at lvl 18? It isn't listed. Have to go will check in later!"

Mike Sayre responded: "For a variety of reasons, no, but we did boost the compatibility between spellshot and beast gunner."

I'm legitimately curious as to why, but I'm not gonna try and guess. Just an interesting thing to note that it's not an error that Master Spellcasting was missing.

Beast guns. Gross.

One trouble I think spellshot (and every other class archetype) suffers from is Paizo undervaluing the expense of them.

Taking a class archetype alters some part of your class (in the spellshot's case it makes your class DC worse), forces you to take a specific level 2 feat, and locks you out of taking a dedication feat.

So while the updates make Spellshot more usable, is it so much better than pistolero or drifter or vanguard or sniper that it justifies its own downsides? I still don't really think it pulls that off.

Karmagator wrote:

My best bet is mostly thematic reasons. A spellshot is a gun/crossbow user that has some magical ability, they aren't "committing" enough to be called a master at spellcraft.

The problem is it kind of turns its own subclass gimmick into a dead end. A non-spellshot gunslinger who just takes Wizard dedication is going to get more mileage out of their spellcasting, and a spellshot who wants to finish their spellcasting has to take Wizard dedication anyways. It feels less like clever design and more like the internal systems are a little bit broken.

Giving access to most of the Wizard archetype (aside from the final set of spells) is useful. The way already had its own useful feats on top of that too. A couple cantrips are probably better than the old Conjure Bullet - even without going into Beast Gunner, Shield and Light and such are useful.

Basic/Advanced Arcana are also of note here I think because familiars can be useful and you can upgrade one via those. The other wizard feats are probably not actually worth anything to you?

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Giving access to most of the Wizard archetype (aside from the final set of spells) is useful. The way already had its own useful feats on top of that too. A couple cantrips are probably better than the old Conjure Bullet - even without going into Beast Gunner, Shield and Light and such are useful.

Basic/Advanced Arcana are also of note here I think because familiars can be useful and you can upgrade one via those. The other wizard feats are probably not actually worth anything to you?

Nah, there are other Wizard feats that can be a nice addition to my kit. Spellbook Prodigy is useful for spellbook casters of any kind, Bespell Weapon would probably be better to use on a Gunslinger than a Wizard, to be honest. And Knowledge is Power combos well with Way of the Spellshot's Thoughtful Reload.

Conceal Spell would be good for a silent initial Fireball volley. Then there's Spell Protection Array for a possible 3rd action to use, Convincing Illusion for niche illusion builds, and I might even take Scroll Adept as a capstone for 2 free scrolls every day (3 if I can grab that Master Spellcasting elsewhere!).

Ezekieru wrote:

Nah, there are other Wizard feats that can be a nice addition to my kit. Spellbook Prodigy is useful for spellbook casters of any kind, Bespell Weapon would probably be better to use on a Gunslinger than a Wizard, to be honest. And Knowledge is Power combos well with Way of the Spellshot's Thoughtful Reload.

Conceal Spell would be good for a silent initial Fireball volley. Then there's Spell Protection Array for a possible 3rd action to use, Convincing Illusion for niche illusion builds, and I might even take Scroll Adept as a capstone for 2 free scrolls every day (3 if I can grab that Master Spellcasting elsewhere!).

Knowledge is power is a L16 feat on spell shot, so I don't think its going to be that useful honestly. A perfect example of something that should have been added to the class archetype as a L8 feat (magus gets it at L6) instead of tying it to half level progression.

The same critique goes for all the feats you listed? All way too late game to say that this is 'great'.

Reload + Cast a Spell action compression would have been way better. Even better would have been a few focus point feats that give you cool gun shots (maybe the dedication would give you a reload + strike with a rider debuff or damage effect) and later could give you 2 at 0MAP on separate enemies, or an AOE blast off your strike, or phase bullet, etc.